Thursday, May 12, 2005, 4:21 PM
Survey: Windows Forms Programming 2ed Length
There has been some publisher/author controversy around the length of the 2ed of Windows Forms Programming. WF2 has essentially doubled in size, so I was happy that it looks like we're be less than twice the number of pages (700 for 1ed vs. estimated 1200 for 2ed). However, when I sent this estimate to my publisher last month, they were less than pleased. Apparently if you go above 800 pages, that tends to scare people and may cut into sales. Here are the options we wrestled with:
- Cut 400 pages of material out of the WF2 book, leaving it on the cutting room floor
- Ship a 1200 page WF2 book, increasing the cover price by $10
- Move 400 pages of material out of the WF2 book, releasing them as freely available PDF files on the web (continuing to index and refer to this material in the printed book)
- Split the book into two volumes, priced accordingly (probably $35 each)
There's one piece of information that I'm share later that caused us to lean one way more than the other, but I'm curious what readers would choose when given this choice.
P.S. Believe me when I tell you that we've been diligent about cutting stuff that doesn't belong in the book, although I admit that we've been unwilling to cut material that will be generally useful for WinForms programmers, even if it does decrease sales. I'm still hoping we'll be able to get the page count below 1200, but the upshot is that option #1 has always been a non-starter for me.
P.P.S. I expect the first three reviews on Amazon to be complaints about whichever method we choose and reminising about how wonderful it was to get all of WinForms in 700 pages. Those kinds of complaints should be forwarded to the WinForms team in emails that start with "You put too much good stuff into WinForms 2.0!" : )
81 comments on this post
Simon:
It's an essential reference book! Stuff as much in as you can! Add any extra chapters on a cd too. I've read larger books that Wrox used to pump out with less substance, and I'm not put off at any price.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 4:31 PM
Andrew:
Having owned the 1ed, I would not mind buying it as a 2 book set as long as they where sold together. It would be a pain in the ass if I had to buy them seperate, collections are good( no pun intended). I lean away from PDF style stuff even though I am a fan of the PDF format; I find reading code on the computer all the time to be mind numbing. So I support or would support buying it as a 2 book set.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 4:32 PM
Paul:
Two volumes would certainly work for me, too. Like Andrew, I rather dislike reading books on the computer screen. It's hard on the eyeballs, and printing it yourself would, well... suck. Just don't pick option 1.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 4:44 PM
Steve Johnson:
Knowing your reputation, I would buy the 1200 pages for the higher price. However, if I were unfamiliar with the author, I would shy away from such a tome. In that case, I'd rather have the 400 pages less. Adam Nathan's interop book is the only software book of that size that I own. The "by the pound" Wrox books have caused me to favor smaller volumes.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 4:56 PM
David Douglass:
I suggest you rent Amadeus and play for your publisher the part where the Count (or whatever he was) complains to Mozart that his music “has too many notes”. Keep all the WinForms material, but don’t give us overviews of related technologies such as ADO.NET, XML, the CLR, etc.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 4:57 PM
Kory:
Ship book with 1200 pages. I'll still be buying it.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:09 PM
Mike Sax:
If you split it into two editions, would each edition be able to stand on its own? Would it make sense for some people to buy only one of the editions? If so, it's a great option. If not, it feels very lame and you should sell the big book for $10 extra.
Or, just like in software there could be the "Standard Edition" (800 pages) and the "Professional Edition" (1200 pages). :)
Or, just like in software there could be the "Standard Edition" (800 pages) and the "Professional Edition" (1200 pages). :)
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:17 PM
John:
Option 3 sounds good. Many books are sold these days with supplementary material, such as source code, available via the web.
Also, the extra material is a good marketing story.
I'd prefer to have the option of getting supplementary material in HTML format as well as PDF format, because I really don't like having to install Acrobat Reader, and I find content more accessible via my browser.
Also, the extra material is a good marketing story.
I'd prefer to have the option of getting supplementary material in HTML format as well as PDF format, because I really don't like having to install Acrobat Reader, and I find content more accessible via my browser.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:19 PM
Paul-Marcel:
Option #1 isn't. ;-)
I have no problem shelling out more for a larger tomb of knowledge. The caveat is that when I see a huge book on the shelves, I assume it is a Wrox or Sams publication aiming for volume over substance (I don't need a printed listing every 3 changes...) Your books are different, but I can see a reluctance for a 1,200 page book on the part of the publisher: scares some people away, others assume it's all fluffy listings.
If it makes the publisher happy, 2 volumes would work assuming you can divide the information into two useful categories (as opposed to 1 book torn down the spine). Speaking of spine, talk them into a layflat binding so I can eat my fish tacos and read... 1,200 page books don't lay flat.
If they still refuse, the public PDF file is better than nothing... I'll get it printed and bound in some way.
Oh, and when this question comes up about ATL Internals 2ed., I have the same answer.
I have no problem shelling out more for a larger tomb of knowledge. The caveat is that when I see a huge book on the shelves, I assume it is a Wrox or Sams publication aiming for volume over substance (I don't need a printed listing every 3 changes...) Your books are different, but I can see a reluctance for a 1,200 page book on the part of the publisher: scares some people away, others assume it's all fluffy listings.
If it makes the publisher happy, 2 volumes would work assuming you can divide the information into two useful categories (as opposed to 1 book torn down the spine). Speaking of spine, talk them into a layflat binding so I can eat my fish tacos and read... 1,200 page books don't lay flat.
If they still refuse, the public PDF file is better than nothing... I'll get it printed and bound in some way.
Oh, and when this question comes up about ATL Internals 2ed., I have the same answer.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:27 PM
Jay Glynn:
I think our book is going to run about 1300 pages (Pro C#), so I say print it all.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:38 PM
Jeff Zuerlein:
I'd split it into two books for two reasons... Carrying around 1200 page books hurts my back, and I have faith that you've got nothing but good content. My wallet is open...
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:40 PM
Scott Weinstein:
a lot of us here in New York City catch up on our tech reading in the subway system.
If I can't comfortably hold the book in my hands while standing on a train for 30 minutes there's _no way_ I'm buying the book.
I suggest you print it in two volumes, but use a lighter stock of paper, to keep the weight and the cost down.
If I can't comfortably hold the book in my hands while standing on a train for 30 minutes there's _no way_ I'm buying the book.
I suggest you print it in two volumes, but use a lighter stock of paper, to keep the weight and the cost down.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:48 PM
Ayende Rahien:
I would prefer a single big book. Easier to carry around, and you don't forget the part you need /right now/ in the office/car/etc.
I understand that people may feel relucant to buy/carry such big books, but I feel that they are worth it.
If not, then splitting it to two books is preferable. I read a lot of book on the computer, and I read a lot of real books. Real books are better, period.
One cavet, each book need to have an agenda of its own, don't just put basic / advanced or split the book in the middle please.
I understand that people may feel relucant to buy/carry such big books, but I feel that they are worth it.
If not, then splitting it to two books is preferable. I read a lot of book on the computer, and I read a lot of real books. Real books are better, period.
One cavet, each book need to have an agenda of its own, don't just put basic / advanced or split the book in the middle please.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:50 PM
Corey Haines:
Single big book! The first edition is an essential reference, so the second edition would get added to my bookshelf as soon as it came out!
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 5:57 PM
Ron Green:
Single 1200 page or 2 volume are both ok.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 6:36 PM
mobile:
Wow, this post really needs some grammatical corrections.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 6:43 PM
John Schroedl:
I'd prefer one large book...
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 6:44 PM
haacked@gmail.com (Haacked):
I'd prefer you print it as one long Papyrus scroll. Thank you.
No seriously, I want the whole thing in print, either as one volume, or two (if each volume can stand on its own).
No seriously, I want the whole thing in print, either as one volume, or two (if each volume can stand on its own).
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 6:54 PM
Marc C. Brooks:
Two volumes of goodness please. I'll put them on the shelf next to Windows Telephony Programming
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 7:16 PM
Dan Diephouse:
Preface - I have not having looked at the first book.
1200 pages is fine and all. Just don't make it 1200 pages of big print with tons of spacing. The amount of spacing in some tech books just kills me.
1200 pages is fine and all. Just don't make it 1200 pages of big print with tons of spacing. The amount of spacing in some tech books just kills me.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 7:31 PM
Jeff Key:
Any number of books, no PDFs.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 7:38 PM
Keith:
I like the 2 book option for portability and ease of reading (see earlier comments about big books not lying flat).
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 7:41 PM
Dewayne Christensen:
Honestly, I don't have time to read a 600-page book, let alone a 1200-page one. I've basically quit buying anything larger than the "Pragmatic" series of books because they just become outdated doorstops. If I want a reference, I'll either hit F1 or Google.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 8:17 PM
John L. Welshofer:
More info, more detail from you is ALWAYS a good thing. Two books, one book, whatever. I bought two copies of the first book (got tired of carrying it back and forth) and will buy the next edition(s).
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 8:19 PM
Andrew Robinson:
Two volumes. Sell them together at a slight discount or separately. Hopefully each volume should cover a different area, maybe not stand on its own. Knowledge is king. The more detail without fluf, the better.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 8:33 PM
Rob Johnston:
In order of preference:
#2 (big book), #4 (two books), #3 (pdf - only if you really need to), don't even entertain #1
If you've written it, I want to read it, whatever form it takes :)
#2 (big book), #4 (two books), #3 (pdf - only if you really need to), don't even entertain #1
If you've written it, I want to read it, whatever form it takes :)
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 8:46 PM
Justin King:
I'd rather more pages for my money. Why would anyone want less pages!!
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 9:01 PM
Shawn MacFarland:
Fat is where its at Baby! Reference books need to be giant porkers!!! Bring on the forklift. Make it 3000 super dense pages at 6 point type!! ;-)
Its the extra things that don't get absorbed on the first pass that return a reader to a book and give it staying power. If the wieght comes from answering the second and third tier question, ie details that you would not know enough to ask about on the intial pass-through, required in assembling your mental map of the material, then I say "BRING IT!!".
Good references scale up, as their reader gains understanding from the reading, and hence we have the many layers of meat that serve to intimidate the publishers, who themselves will never be as wonkish as the author and his audience.
Its the extra things that don't get absorbed on the first pass that return a reader to a book and give it staying power. If the wieght comes from answering the second and third tier question, ie details that you would not know enough to ask about on the intial pass-through, required in assembling your mental map of the material, then I say "BRING IT!!".
Good references scale up, as their reader gains understanding from the reading, and hence we have the many layers of meat that serve to intimidate the publishers, who themselves will never be as wonkish as the author and his audience.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 9:37 PM
RL:
You should be in sales.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 11:10 PM
B Coltof:
I'd prefer a two book edition, makes the books easier to use (no need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger) and still get all the info in dead tree fomat.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 11:27 PM
Jelle Druyts:
In VirtualPC terms: keep the original first edition as the base image and make the second edition with all the new stuff the differencing hard disk so it gets smaller and I only need to buy one more book. The two together would still make up the entire story :-)
Other than that: options 4 and 2 are feasible. I don't like option 3 that much, the fact that you would index and refer to stuff that's not in print in the package I bought doesn't sound 'atomic'. Besides, I want it on paper, and I wouldn't want me and your 1E6+ other readers to hose printer cartridges to get it on there.
Other than that: options 4 and 2 are feasible. I don't like option 3 that much, the fact that you would index and refer to stuff that's not in print in the package I bought doesn't sound 'atomic'. Besides, I want it on paper, and I wouldn't want me and your 1E6+ other readers to hose printer cartridges to get it on there.
Thursday, May 12, 2005, 11:29 PM
Matthew Fortunka:
One big book! The original is an essential reference. Splitting into two gives the added problem of having to remember which book contains the stuff you need. (Same problem with the pdf idea!)
Cutting stuff out is an option but I would mourn the loss.
Cutting stuff out is an option but I would mourn the loss.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 12:38 AM
Kevin Daly:
Option 2, another $10 is a drop in the ocean compared with what the overall cost will be.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 12:44 AM
Twain:
Hope I'm not too late to weigh in here. Either the two volume set (both of which must be available simultaneously or as a boxed set edition) or the one volume "porker" edition. Either way, you absolutely cannot consider option #1. As an earlier post indicated, "it really isn't an option."
Oh, and if I could comment on ATL Internals, 2nd edition, I can't wait!!! This is another book which shouldn't be shortchanged. After all these years, I'm still learning stuff from the 1st edition.
Oh, and if I could comment on ATL Internals, 2nd edition, I can't wait!!! This is another book which shouldn't be shortchanged. After all these years, I'm still learning stuff from the 1st edition.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 12:48 AM
Adam Featherstone:
Ship the larger book I'll buy it.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 1:16 AM
Mark Grant:
Option 2 (I trust you that the added info is worth $10)
Friday, May 13, 2005, 1:39 AM
Ian Ringrose:
I don’t mind if your new book is very big. I already know from the 1st edition that it will be worth buying.
I see you as proving the book for people that “wish to be experts” in WinForms. If someone is just starting on learning WinForms your book was never a good “first” book for them to start with, therefore making it bigger mean you meet your core market better.
It may be worth being “advanced” or “expert” in the sub title.
Ian Ringrose
www.ringrose.name <- email on web page
I see you as proving the book for people that “wish to be experts” in WinForms. If someone is just starting on learning WinForms your book was never a good “first” book for them to start with, therefore making it bigger mean you meet your core market better.
It may be worth being “advanced” or “expert” in the sub title.
Ian Ringrose
www.ringrose.name <- email on web page
Friday, May 13, 2005, 1:40 AM
zed:
option 2
Friday, May 13, 2005, 2:54 AM
ct:
in college when faced with this problem, i just changed the font to arial narrow and reduced it to 9 point, single spaced... :-)
if that is not an option, i would like option 3...
if that is not an option, i would like option 3...
Friday, May 13, 2005, 4:15 AM
Simon Geering:
Chris, I would prefer a boxed set of two volumes as it is a pain resting 1200 pages on your chest when reading in bed ? (The only time I get!). Seriously the larger volumes are not so practical but I would gladly pay more for two volumes. What about a collector’s set with a searchable electronic version of both volumes on one CD like some of the SQL server books do? Having read the first book I know it will all be quality material so whatever form it takes please don’t leave any material out!
Friday, May 13, 2005, 4:42 AM
bob:
Single book. I'll be happy to pay the extra $10. That's cheap money to have quality reference material!
Friday, May 13, 2005, 4:43 AM
Andrew Webb:
Option 2.
"if you go above 800 pages, that tends to scare people and may cut into sales" - this may apply to civilians, but not to us geeks.
"if you go above 800 pages, that tends to scare people and may cut into sales" - this may apply to civilians, but not to us geeks.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 4:52 AM
Harry Nath:
My vote is for either one or two books. (Option 2 or Option 4).
Friday, May 13, 2005, 5:13 AM
Stelios Tzivakis:
I have bought the 1st edition , so i can say sure this is not a Wrox like book .
So since the whole stuff is worthy i think the best alternative would be 2 volumes.
If these two could be separated into meaningfull index that would be ok , since it will not seem as a marketing trick to buy more.
So since the whole stuff is worthy i think the best alternative would be 2 volumes.
If these two could be separated into meaningfull index that would be ok , since it will not seem as a marketing trick to buy more.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 5:47 AM
Travis:
Option #2 or #4. Either way, I'll be purchasing a copy.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 5:48 AM
Ed Pinto:
2.
I want the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Without the need to context switch.
Cheers,
Ed
I want the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Without the need to context switch.
Cheers,
Ed
Friday, May 13, 2005, 5:50 AM
Derek Price:
Single book - no pdf. I don't want to search for that missing volume or require a pc to read it.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 6:04 AM
Joe Codemo:
Either the larger book or the 2 volume set, I'll plop down my cash (or my company's). I don't want the extra goodies in a pdf or something like that. Kill trees like a good writer!!!
Friday, May 13, 2005, 6:08 AM
Chris Wuestefeld:
Except when I'm first learning a technology, I don't actually sit down and read through a book. Instead, I use it for reference. I locate the topic (in the index or otherwise), turn the appropriate pages, and scan.
So for a book to be useful to me, I need completeness and a good index.
Keep the single large book. I want all the material, and if there are two volumes, then Murphy guarantees that I'll have the wrong one with me.
If you create a softcopy of the text, please don't use PDF. It's uncomfortable to read. Use raw HTML or even CHM or MHT. PDF demands that text be formatted and flowed a certain way. But frequently I want to have my VS.Net and my documentation open at the same time; I can't read the docs this way if they're in PDF.
So for a book to be useful to me, I need completeness and a good index.
Keep the single large book. I want all the material, and if there are two volumes, then Murphy guarantees that I'll have the wrong one with me.
If you create a softcopy of the text, please don't use PDF. It's uncomfortable to read. Use raw HTML or even CHM or MHT. PDF demands that text be formatted and flowed a certain way. But frequently I want to have my VS.Net and my documentation open at the same time; I can't read the docs this way if they're in PDF.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 6:19 AM
Srikanth:
I vote for #4. The first book should go like "Essential WinForms" that covers all the topics in WinForms at core fundamentals level and also all controls that come with Visual Studio. The second should be like "Advanced Winforms - Concepts,Patterns and Examples". I feel that this arrangement will benefit people whatever their choice may be.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 6:22 AM
Max:
Simple. 1200pages. One book. Two volumes!
Friday, May 13, 2005, 6:25 AM
Gareth Jones:
Two volumes
The spines never work right on huge books.
Don't drop the material or make it PDFs though whatever you do. What am I supposed to do with A4 printouts of PDFs?
The spines never work right on huge books.
Don't drop the material or make it PDFs though whatever you do. What am I supposed to do with A4 printouts of PDFs?
Friday, May 13, 2005, 6:31 AM
Steve Campbell:
1200 pages does sound too long. Sounds like you have enough material for a second book, if you can find a nice place to draw the line.
Having read the first edition though, there is not much I would have removed from that - it was just the right level of information.
Having read the first edition though, there is not much I would have removed from that - it was just the right level of information.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 7:15 AM
Chris:
1. Since Windows Forms 2.0 have changed a lot and not only in adding new features but also in upgrading and changing existing behaviours, I don't think possible to keep the current version and "simply" write an AddOn book.
2. I don't know the numbers in term of bad/good sales related to the size of a book. However, even though big books like Wrox did in the past might seem to not sell well, the major cause is the quality of the book. People are scared about buying a book where more than half of it is bad indented source code or even a copy of the MSDN documentation.
I have not reviewed the chapters yet but I'm sure this is clearly not the case for Chris's book. I know a few big books that were good books such as Pro MFC from Mike Blaszczak or .NET and COM by Adam Nathan.
They are both larger than 1200 pages and their quality was the reason why they were best-sellers. I don't remember the number of pages of "Inside OLE" but the success was here too because it was a great book and also maybe the only one with that level of detail about the topic.
I think that WinForms 2 fits this kind of book, not only reference but above all, unique source of information; which is hard to believe in our days of overwhelming information all over the Web.
3. I don't know how it will be possible to split the content in two different books but I fear that the whole consistency of each tome would be hard to find. Personnaly, I would prefer buying one single bigger book than two smaller. The major reason is that fact that the information you need is often in the book you don't have; especially when you are travelling. I have to say that I have bought two copies of the books I'm using the most: one for the office, one for home.
4. My final point is related to an electronic version of the book, either partially for some extra chapters that would not fit within or entirely. I'm using electronic versions of books for two reasons: fast search and compact size when I'm travelling.
Otherwise, I'm never ever reading a book on a computer because it is harder to read and I can't annotate it the same way I'm doing with the paper version.
So, my recommendation would be to publish the 1200+ pages even with an higher price. If not possible, publish two books (even though I fear that they will not sell as good as one single) but don't cut the content.
2. I don't know the numbers in term of bad/good sales related to the size of a book. However, even though big books like Wrox did in the past might seem to not sell well, the major cause is the quality of the book. People are scared about buying a book where more than half of it is bad indented source code or even a copy of the MSDN documentation.
I have not reviewed the chapters yet but I'm sure this is clearly not the case for Chris's book. I know a few big books that were good books such as Pro MFC from Mike Blaszczak or .NET and COM by Adam Nathan.
They are both larger than 1200 pages and their quality was the reason why they were best-sellers. I don't remember the number of pages of "Inside OLE" but the success was here too because it was a great book and also maybe the only one with that level of detail about the topic.
I think that WinForms 2 fits this kind of book, not only reference but above all, unique source of information; which is hard to believe in our days of overwhelming information all over the Web.
3. I don't know how it will be possible to split the content in two different books but I fear that the whole consistency of each tome would be hard to find. Personnaly, I would prefer buying one single bigger book than two smaller. The major reason is that fact that the information you need is often in the book you don't have; especially when you are travelling. I have to say that I have bought two copies of the books I'm using the most: one for the office, one for home.
4. My final point is related to an electronic version of the book, either partially for some extra chapters that would not fit within or entirely. I'm using electronic versions of books for two reasons: fast search and compact size when I'm travelling.
Otherwise, I'm never ever reading a book on a computer because it is harder to read and I can't annotate it the same way I'm doing with the paper version.
So, my recommendation would be to publish the 1200+ pages even with an higher price. If not possible, publish two books (even though I fear that they will not sell as good as one single) but don't cut the content.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 7:18 AM
Alfred Gary Myers Jr.:
Are you sure that there aren't any parts of the new book that were not already in the 1st edition?
These parts could be delivered on CD-ROM or website.
Brad Abram's SLARv1 has done a good job in maintaining the printed book's page count low while offering a very much extended version in PDF format contained on CD-ROM.
These parts could be delivered on CD-ROM or website.
Brad Abram's SLARv1 has done a good job in maintaining the printed book's page count low while offering a very much extended version in PDF format contained on CD-ROM.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 7:28 AM
Paul Laudeman:
Quality of content is the key to selling books. You are already well known as an authority on Windows Forms development and I believe that people (definitely myself!) would glady spend the extra money to have a larger edition filled with the extra goodness.
P.S. -- can you autograph my copy when it comes out? :-)
P.S. -- can you autograph my copy when it comes out? :-)
Friday, May 13, 2005, 7:41 AM
Eugene Tolmachev:
Agree with Scott Weinstein, 2 volumes.
Or 1 volume of new material, referencing old edition for the rest.
Or 1 volume of new material, referencing old edition for the rest.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 8:01 AM
Matt Wilson:
My first thought was that a single book would be best at any size. But then I thought why limit ourselves to paper? Why not release this also as an eBook, compiled HTML, or PDF? I suppose this would be a fifth choice not on the original list. Is this an option at all Chris?
Friday, May 13, 2005, 8:26 AM
Jason Kemp:
Two volumes organized as stand alone books. It'll trick people, including me, who believe the giant bricks Wrox and others put out have no content. Not to say WinForms 2e will have no content. 1e is my first reference for WinForms programming now.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 8:53 AM
Mike Dimmick:
I think the only 1200+page books I own are "Programming Windows" (Petzold) and "Programming Windows with MFC" (Prosise). "Programming Applications for Microsoft Windows" (Richter) comes close - 1056 pages. Well, unless you count Peter F. Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" trilogy, in which all three parts are slightly over 1200 pages in the paperback editions.
Don't short on the diagrams, if necessary, but you don't need to do complete listings. The three books I mention above _do_ have complete listings, and you can't see the important, demonstrative points of the program for all of the boilerplate, much as they've usually tried to minimize that.
Don't short on the diagrams, if necessary, but you don't need to do complete listings. The three books I mention above _do_ have complete listings, and you can't see the important, demonstrative points of the program for all of the boilerplate, much as they've usually tried to minimize that.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 11:39 AM
Corrado Cavalli:
Single book, I'll pay $10..., I want a single reference where i can find All infos I need.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 12:37 PM
mkizer@csc.com:
I would choose either a bigger single book, or the two volume approach. I hate reading books on the computer, so no to the PDF approach.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 1:00 PM
Rob Niswonger:
Knowing the quality of the first book, I would release it one big volume, but I wouldn't complain if it came in two volumes.
If you go with the two volume approach, I would ask that you find a way for both books to stand on their own. For example have the first volume focused on the standard/beginner type things and the seconde focus on the more advance aspects.
If you go with the two volume approach, I would ask that you find a way for both books to stand on their own. For example have the first volume focused on the standard/beginner type things and the seconde focus on the more advance aspects.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 1:13 PM
Peter Stathakos:
Option 2 is the better choice in my opinion and even better if the book includes a CD with searchable text. It would be well worth the extra $10 for the added content.
Failing that option 3 is the next best choice. As you mentioned option 1 is not really desirable.
Failing that option 3 is the next best choice. As you mentioned option 1 is not really desirable.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 2:20 PM
Chris Sells:
I hate complete listings. I never do complete listings unless the program is *tiny*.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 3:27 PM
Brian Noyes:
I would say two volume set would be first choice, PDF chapters for free second. Don't cut content - your stuff is like gold. You would be depriving the masses. There would be an uprising. A flood. Locusts. A Tornado. Something bad would be bound to happen.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 3:39 PM
Chris Sells:
Well, I'd hate to be responsible for locusts... : )
Friday, May 13, 2005, 5:03 PM
Michael Latta:
First choice: 2 books sold together at a slight discount. Second choice: 2 books sold separately. Last choice: 1 book + PDF. In all cases I hope the books come with PDF that can be searched for reference. If the complete PDF costs extra, I can live with that.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 5:49 PM
Michael Latta:
First choice: 2 books sold together at a slight discount. Second choice: 2 books sold separately. Last choice: 1 book + PDF. In all cases I hope the books come with PDF that can be searched for reference. If the complete PDF costs extra, I can live with that.
Friday, May 13, 2005, 5:49 PM
Mike:
Please do not cut the material. I'd prefer multiple volumes. Looking at your first edition, I'd say the publisher wasted far too much white space, it could have been a much thinner book. And the pages are quite thick. At the least, you can always decrease the font size. Anyway, keep up the good work!
Mike
Mike
Saturday, May 14, 2005, 4:53 PM
Michael Weinhardt:
I read the Night's Dawn Trilogy and we certainly won't be that long :) At least, all that we put in is good stuff.
Well, I think so :)
Well, I think so :)
Sunday, May 15, 2005, 5:44 AM
Ali Khawaja:
all i am interested is in knowing the published date! if i need to know in and out of technology, i am not sure if i would bother about size of the book. and on top of that, a book written by esteemed authors like you guys, i would rather have a 2000 page book.
Sunday, May 15, 2005, 7:38 AM
Jan Van Ryswyck:
Publish it as a whole. I never heard a programmer complaining about the size of "Programming Windows" of Charles Petzold.
I read this master piece from cover to cover, twice!! I found it even too short as I would like that the writer would go on. I don't own a copy of the first edition, but I definitly want to buy the 2nd edition. If I like it, 1200 pages is even too little!! If I'm bored, then well ...
I read this master piece from cover to cover, twice!! I found it even too short as I would like that the writer would go on. I don't own a copy of the first edition, but I definitly want to buy the 2nd edition. If I like it, 1200 pages is even too little!! If I'm bored, then well ...
Monday, May 16, 2005, 12:50 PM
Ryan D:
2 volumes, available either separately or bundled. Volume 1 should be able to stand alone, with Volume 2 being more advanced topics.
Tuesday, May 17, 2005, 8:34 AM
Deepak:
More pages...more input...sweet!
Tuesday, May 17, 2005, 5:51 PM
Geoff Hirst:
Whatever the format, it will be bought here and no doubt recommended to the masses. $10 extra, what does that equate to in £'s, oh yes £10. What the hell, just get it into print anyway and anyhow, put the code online (so we don't pay UK VAT on a CD). Cheers.
Thursday, May 19, 2005, 6:14 AM
Chris Sells:
We're planning to have the book out w/in a few months of the RTM of VS2005.
Friday, May 20, 2005, 11:05 AM
Stewart Whaley:
Whatever you do don't include a CD [to keep the cost down] and allow us to download the code and a PDF of the manual [so we can do fast searches].
Sunday, May 22, 2005, 7:57 AM
Chris Sells:
The plan of record (subject to change) is that we'll publish all 1200 pages as a single volume with the samples available online only. I don't see us including a CD (those get stale too quickly for my taste) or PDF files (those get pirated too quickly for my publisher's taste).
BTW, the piece of information that I withheld from you is that, according to AW's studies, larger books suffer a much smaller rate of decline in sales when they're written by "well-known authors," which my publisher has decided to brand me, so you'll just have to keep on a-turnin' those pages. : )
BTW, the piece of information that I withheld from you is that, according to AW's studies, larger books suffer a much smaller rate of decline in sales when they're written by "well-known authors," which my publisher has decided to brand me, so you'll just have to keep on a-turnin' those pages. : )
Monday, May 23, 2005, 10:48 AM
Peter Jackson:
How about serializing it into three LOTR-style books and issuing each volume just in time for christmas? Might need to work on your cliff-hangers though.
Monday, Jun 6, 2005, 3:49 AM
Shawn Cicoria:
Release Vol 1 & Vol 2 in book form.
However, Vol 2 also as a PDF book either free or reduced cost. This way for those of us using the toilet, er, reading room, we can buy both at our cost and not have to balance a notebook computer on our knees when we take care of business.
However, Vol 2 also as a PDF book either free or reduced cost. This way for those of us using the toilet, er, reading room, we can buy both at our cost and not have to balance a notebook computer on our knees when we take care of business.
Wednesday, Jul 13, 2005, 5:40 AM
